Cops can no longer make you wait around for a drug sniffing dog to get to a traffic stop unless they have probable cause for doing so. In the case above, cop issued a traffic citation and then made the guy wait for 7ish minutes till the drug sniffing dog got there. Dog found drugs. Court ruled that requiring the defendant to wait after the citation was issued was unconstitutional and the lower court's denial of motion to suppress the evidence was in error.
I don't know how much this will change the reality of such traffic stops since police probable cause is a pretty subjective thing but...it's still a victory for the 4th amendment on paper.
The dog was with him in his cruiser, and the driver refused to let it sniff the car from outside. The 8 min wait was for his backup to arrive. I've no idea what this 4th amendment is about...guess it doesn't allow the police to boss you around just on a hunch?
Harry]The dog was with him in his cruiser, and the driver refused to let it sniff the car from outside. The 8 min wait was for his backup to arrive.
You're right. Still doesn't change the legal aspect of it though. The idea is, once the citation is issued, there was no further reason to detain the man any longer, or at least none that officer was able to articulate. He was pulled over because the officer believed he'd violated traffic laws. Once the citation is issued, he is supposed to let the guy go unless he has a reasonable suspicion that the man has committed or is about to commit another crime, ie, smelling pot, smelling liquor on the man's breath, or seeing meth pipes or open alcohol containers in the backseat, etc.
I'm actually kinda surprised the guy won this. That means the cop is either really honest, had no reasonable suspicion and was honest about that fact, or he is bad at writing his reports. Sonya would know better than me but I'd imagine that saying the driver had dialated pupils, was very nervous and fidgety and seemed like he was on stimulants would have been enough to validate reasonable suspicion for the detainment until back up arrived and he was able to use the dog. Reasonable suspicion is a pretty easy standard to satisfy.
Also to be clear, reasonable suspicion and probable cause are not the same thing.
In this case, reasonable suspicion would be whatever the justifiable reason to detain the man while the other officer arrived was. This is what the court said was missing from this case.
Probable cause is what happened when the dog alerted to the scent of drugs. The dog's alert was the probable cause needed to justify the search of the vehicle.
Probable cause is a harder thing to justify than reasonable suspicion.
Vermithrax]I've been reading about this for the last couple of days. What a shame. Yea Zelik, I read that these federal "experts" trained literally thousands of state experts.
I wonder how many appeals this is going to cause.
This is a really good video about why you shouldn't talk to police or answer questions. Go to 23:05, it's relevant to this whole situation. Even if you're innocent, any statements made to police can be used against you along with "mistaken or unreliable evidence" to get a conviction against you.
The funniest part about that is people think that it helps them...
I can't tell you how many times I've had to arrest someone for bullshit because "I want a lawyer." Obviously I cannot talk to them after that but what I really want to say is, "Dude, their story sounds like bullshit to me. If you just tell me they're lying I won't arrest you." But obviously I can't.
It's easy to get confused obviously because people don't deal with this every day. If I walk up to you and ask you, "What happened?" It means I'm either not convinced by the other person's story, I actually have no clue what happened, or I'm conducting an investigation. A lot of times those people, because they've been told to by a lawyer, say that they want a lawyer and won't talk to me. Unfortunately, that means that my entire investigation relies on what the other people are telling me and I am unable to go any further with it.
For example: We get a call from a relative that his mom texted him that his brother stabbed her. We show up, blood EVERYWHERE and she's bleeding out. She's uncooperative and doesn't like us. So after a huge standoff with the adult brother who had himself locked in his bedroom and a footchase, we catch him. The first thing we ask him is, "Dude, what's going on?" He responds, "I want a lawyer." Guess who's going to jail. While at the jail he states, "You made a false arrest, she tried to stab me." That may be true but someone wanted a lawyer so my investigation is based on what I saw and was told...
The difference is after I've done an investigation and read you the Miranda Admonishment, informing you of your fifth amendment rights. This means that I have enough evidence to believe that you committed the crime and I'm placing you under arrest. Then you can ask for your attorney to help you get out of a crime you committed. Or at least plead out to a petty theft after breaking into a house, stealing a TV, and punching the home owner in the face after they woke up and scared you.
Sonya]As scary as it sounds, there are certain people that love being victims and eye-witnesses. Some people will get on the stand and greatly exaggerate all sorts of things, because it makes them feel important. Others like being a victim because of the attention and sympathy that it brings them. I remember one woman that came into court and she was sobbing and wailing -- as if her child had died -- because some kids went skateboarding in her pool (which was empty). She kept going on and on about how her "security was violated" and "she'll never be able to live there." She then asked for over $100k in damages (as restitution) because of supposed damage the skateboarding caused to the pool.
Then compare those numbers to the amount of career criminals that are back on the streets because their defense attorney found a loophole in the laws, a flaw in the evidence, or the county was so overwhelmed by cases they convinced the DA to lessen the charges.
I totally understand what you are saying and agree. Will just add a slight caveat that miranda protections (based on the Miranda precedent case) are not the same as 5th amendment rights against self-incrimination. Any statement made during the investigation (and prior to arresting the suspect and giving the Miranda) is going in your report and will almost certainly be used against the defendant at trial if it's incriminating. If you roll up on the scene of a DV and my wife is dead and I am covered in blood and the first thing I say when you see me is, "OH NO I KILLED HER!!!", that's 100% coming up in court despite me not being under arrest and miranda advisement when I said it.
Bear in mind, the vid I linked is a lawyer talking to law school students. Thing is, most people smart enough to understand how all this works and apply it in a smart manner are usually not people who routinely break the law and need to know this shit anyway.
It does apply in every day situations too though. Couple examples I can think of here in CA.
Beat cop pulls me over for speeding. Usually first thing out of their mouth is, "Do you know why I pulled you over?" This is a clear example of a seemingly innocent question designed to make the driver give up his 5th amendment right and admit guilt for what he's suspected of doing. Now you can handle this like a douche and say, "MY LAWYER SAID DON'T TALK TO COPS!!!", or you can be friendly and say something like "I am not sure officer, I was hoping you'd tell me." The latter statement is what I always say and it avoids confrontation while simultaneously preserving your rights.
Another example, usually the 2nd or 3rd thing out of the cop's mouth after you're pulled over is, "Is this your current address on your license?", or in my case, "Are you wearing your corrective lenses today?". Now in both cases, if I answer "no", I am going to be written up for additional citations. They're asking those questions specifically to get you to admit guilt so you can be written up for more citations. Even if they are correctable offenses, I'm still going to pay the $35 per offense or whatever correction fee is. In both instances, I am fully within my rights to say, "All due respect officer, but I'd rather not answer any questions today." Doing that would prevent additional citations if the answer happened to be no. However, if it were me IRL and the answer was no, I'd just lie and say yes. It sucks to lie but it's easier than dealing with cops who get annoyed when I try to assert my rights.
Another one that bugs me and I'll be honest, is hard for me to still be cool is when they ask on a routine traffic stop, "Where ya headed today?". That shit pisses me off to no end and when they do that, I usually respond with something like, "Is there anything else you needed from me today sir to complete the traffic stop?" That question is 100% geared towards investigation beyond the traffic stop.
Anti] Then compare those numbers to the amount of career criminals that are back on the streets because their defense attorney found a loophole in the laws, a flaw in the evidence, or the county was so overwhelmed by cases they convinced the DA to lessen the charges.
This sucks and is true and is unfortunately, part of the system. I asked Sonya for some legal advice recently because my brother was stabbed with a 6 inch hunting (Rambo) knife in the ribs. He had to have emergency surgery and a blood transfusion and nearly died on the operating table. This happened about 6 months ago. He'd gotten into an argument with his tweaker neighbor and the guy showed up at his house 20 min later, knocked on the door and jumped in and stabbed my brother as soon as he opened the door. Pics below.
The guys is most likely only going to get about 5-7 years for that. D.A. told my bro 80% time for good behavior, so probably 4-5.5 years. That seems like a really small amount of time for someone who is psychotic/sociopathic enough to try and kill someone over an argument. You can imagine how pissed off I am about it. And who fucking knows what this guy will do when he gets out? Finish the job maybe?
Sadly, the situation is what it is. The courts are overwhelmed with the volume of cases. Would I be pissed if this guy walks on a technicality? How about if he walks and then my brother ends up dead in a month? Of course I would, that would be devastating and makes my stomach hurt to even think of it. But at the same time....it's part of the justice system. This system protects you and me and everyone else from medieval justice. Otherwise, I'd have already found this dude and blown his fucking head off, medieval style. In a free society, sometimes criminals will walk.
Fun fact, the reason his wife was able to get a pic of the knife if because it was buried to the hilt in my brothers ribs...Dude ran off after he stabbed him and left the knife.
You're one hundred percent correct that everything someone says before or after invoking their rights goes into the report. So common sense would suggest don't admit to a crime you didn't commit and if you didn't commit a crime just tell the truth.
One positive about getting traffic tickets is you live in a nice neighborhood. Law Enforcement there has the time to enforce traffic laws and make the roads safe. Also that conversation is hilarious, especially the fact you've put that much thought into it. If I do a traffic stops I ask questions to create conversation instead of awkward silence.
Also, F that dude that stabbed your brother. He should sue him for everything. I'm surprised they didn't go attempt murder on that.
Also, F that dude that stabbed your brother. He should sue him for everything. I'm surprised they didn't go attempt murder on that.
Sonya said it's actually not that surprising, and gave me a far worse example he'd seen in his jurisdiction that didn't get A.M. And yea I agree. Unfortunately, the guy is a POS with no future and no assets so suing him would yield jack shit. Can't get blood from a turnip.
My brother just isn't street smart at all. If some tweaker came knocking on my door after I'd just had a heated argument with him, I wouldn't even open the door. Not worth the fucking trouble. I'd just yell through the door and tell the guy I had a gun and was calling the cops and to get the fuck off my porch before he gets shot and/or arrested.
